For those who care about womens issues it was an all female surgical team. (AKA He stops taking showers, the leak stops, think Ill have another Drink) Took a water-collapsed ceiling, him harassing me over the phone, and a resulting court fight (with him suing me for as much as he could and yelling at the judge in the courtroom) before things settled down. A sermon wont cure my chronic conditions, but it might have an insight that helps me. One of the hardest things was having the front half of my head shaved. My brother is a drug addict & alcoholic. At least, from the description. People think they have far more impact than they do re: what they can control re: an addict, and they think they have far less control than they do re: what they themselves can do to reduce the impact of the addict. They will learn not to talk about problems and not to seek help for problems, because its obviously not a safe place and they could be publicly humiliated next. One of the grandparents of my generation has relatively early dementia-the same thing that killed his mother and the same disease that has now stricken him. Thanks ever so much. Pride goeth before a fall, and what a fall RC Sproul Jr. is having. Today, Stephen Nichols and Mrs. Vesta Sproul talk about the vision behind RBC 10 years after its founding. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Ah, but by their theology, he also bears a certain immunity. Shes getting her information, plus a lot of spin, from RC Jr. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. 104:1415). However, Lisa (Sproul?) Deborah wrote: He does not operate in the same universe as many of us if I ever did even one thing he did I would have been shown the door, day one. This is beyond shocking. If you had to be stuck on a desert island with one of three guys, or a swindler [scams, cons] Our records show Robert Charles Sproul (83) as possible relative. Come on People!!!! Church counseling may be harmful at times, but my experience (and my familys experience) with secular programs or treatment has not always been successful, either. Not the family, not the legal system, not the medical people-the church. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. Hes also working with the homeless as part of our parish outreach ( i.e service to others). I guess human pain all has to go somewhere until it ends up at the Cross where it can be laid down so it cannot hurt anyone else. The Bible teaches us what true fellowship of the believer looks like. I was touched by Friends story earlier about how their church and clergy loved a woman alcoholic member who wasnt clean and sober, but was a vital, loving member of their community. At that point, it makes our comments nothing but gossip. While some people in Celebrate Recovery may advocate divorce, Al-Anon doesnt take that approach for the spouses of problem drinkers. An avid Steelers and Pirates fan, sports were a big part of his life. Since many of his abuses of people appear to be in front of the entire church, than at some point in his recovery besides making individual amends he should be making public amends, with the help of a sponsor guiding him in the process. Velour wrote: I have no doubt that I have a guardian angel (maybe more than one!). Perhaps it would be wise for RC2 to be under the oversight of a completely different church where he could be viewed as just another church member rather than RC1s son and the failed pastor. She believes that alcoholics/addicts should be kicked out of the church, and that H.U.G. We dont have money for the hanger-ons those that are faking it bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. Think about grace being the last act in the story, which I think it may be for us all. Finally? Interesting you can say this. ". (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous. She lost an eye because when her cheek struck the dashboard, the bone came out through her eye socket. He promised, but when we got there and got my drink, I knew it didnt taste right. They have their own logic, and its different from yours. Many people lurk on TWW and dont post here. This may or may not be good advice in some cases, but it is certainly not a rule of thumb in that it assumes that the prior trauma caused the current bad behavior of hurting people and assumes that the person cannot help it when they hurt other people, and assumes that some prior trauma is a life time get out of jail free card for when the alleged victim of prior trauma may continue to hurt people. Not all former drinkers transform into likeable people. ; but it seems that Velour is like Christ n her desire to see this man reconciled in his relationship to God and with his fellow man. Not everyone has a spiritual gift to deal with these issues. @ Nick Bulbeck: But -I think you are over-selling non-church treatment. People who dont even pick up a drink can have unhealthy behaviors. I grew up in a verbally abusive family, so I have been here before. We dont know enough about Sproul to know if he needs inpatient or outpatient medical treatment, but neither is likely to work if he isnt actually interested in quitting. He had severe arthritis as well it totally crippled him to the point he could not work, took gold shots, eventually, the treatment and bad medical advice killed him. your anger is showing, yes. Anyone who bothers to check out the evidence, and the evidence is overwhelming, will be convinced thats exactly what theyve done his entire life. That was maybe confusing. A friend had invited me to go to the beach for a fun weekend with her and her parents. His ethanol-fueled rant in the back seat of that cop car got described as Instant A-hole; Just Add Alcohol.. The same woman surgeon from before and a woman anesthesiologist and more women in scrubs packed into the OR than I thought necessary-but they have their reasons. (And we are all frustrated with the double standards we have seen!!). Through the years, we have heard that RC SproulJrhas had an issue with drinking. I was right there, like I always was, at times he would be cussing, why this or that but he needed me. They have their own logic, and its different from yours. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. Would it help your perspective any to know that RC Jr has unjustly excommunicated entire families, and were not just talking a few, including small children, for the alleged sins of their parents? the accusations surrounding JR and his church. She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. In my view and experience with RC Jr shes absolutely correct. Is it only Christ? It has been unopened for a month now, waiting for the opportune time to celebrate. At the time Jr. was unmarried and although he knew that she was my wife, he came on to her more than once. I made a few personal connections with ppl. @ T J Mercer: By creating a false correlation you just gave him the excuse he needs, and youre not the only one here who keeps doing it. Haha. @ Claire: That would probably fall to the individual him or herself and/or their family. Oh, so true. You and I differ on this, and I see no agreement between us on the issue of what is the rightful place of the church in such matters. I dont like the other idea of other people having to go about on pins and needles because of my weaknesses. I know you have suffered from people in your family with this disease, and there is controversy about responsibility versus the helplessness of illness; People think they have far more impact than they do re: what they can control re: an addict, and they think they have far less control than they do re: what they themselves can do to reduce the impact of the addict. But in the mean-time, we cannot look away or play the blame-game on overwhelmed souls. Great minds think alike! In Sprouls case his problems go much deeper than alcoholism. Here is an article by a Christian woman Heather, the author of Sober Mercies, about her own journey as a recovering alcoholic. Its hard to play the empathy card with this clown. RC Sproul passed on, aged 78 years, on December 14, 2017 in Altamonte Springs, Seminole County, Florida. Al-Anon helps people take care of themselves around an alcoholic, to see clearly, so that they can make a decision that is best for their situation at the right time in their lives. Thanks! Today RC Sproul Jr pleaded not guilty and requested a trial by jury. If a church has an alky support group/ministry theyd be the exception, and only in that case would I say a church is qualified to step in and help. ) I havent seen anyone here, including the people you keep belittling, say that a church shouldnt even try to get professional help for an alcoholic member, just the opposite. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. Would love to see some stats on that. New TWW post. Barbara simply made some kind of reference to Scripture about biblical discipline that you dont agree with. Ones dad ritually abused her as a baby, and another one doesnt even know his dad. That is horrific. Yes, there sure is. Thankfully, the truth of Scripture (all have sinned) helped me to realize that there is only even ground at the foot of the Cross. Share Background Report Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida Phone: View phone number Age: 84 Gender: Female So glad you came through it alive and well! Not sure I would quite go this far (God is the only that can really say this) but RC2 certainly has denied Gods power that Paul wrote about in II Tim 3:5. I am not the one who is saying how people should get people into treatment programs. didn't want to slow down enough to safely take the corners. It seems to me that Velours initial comments were based on her own painful experience of being pushed out when she needed to be embraced instead. To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. and just as simply, they dont drive afterward someone who only drank soft things is the designated driver. U.S., Newspapers.com Marriage Index, 1800s-current. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. Because I have had my nose rubbed in Sproul Jrs teaching for a couple of decades, I took my own understanding from what she said, quite the opposite of the one you seem to have taken. posted earlier to the other website dealing with Sproul Jr. This wasnt a little bit buzzed. A chemical test later revealed his blood alcohol content as 0.175, more than twice the legal limit. If you know you have a problem with alcohol, you need to face up to your issue and get help. I kind of understood what they were saying because I came from a church that was very chummy with Sproul Jr and his teachings. Just last week our District Attorney got brought up on 13 felony counts. There is no gradual progression or build-up. Someone tried to organize a bedside vigil, yet this proved unnecessary: many people loved this woman, and they showed up at all hours to sit with her, although she was unconscious. I think the warning labels on alcoholic beverages are too bland. Weve all read your points over and over again. He is survived by his wife, Vesta, their two children, Sherrie Dorotiak and Robert Craig Sproul, eleven grandchildren, and seven great-grandchildren. Here is what he REALLY said. He has used his position of authority and harmed people. I knew theyd made a typo and I found it a rather amusing typo which is why I took it further by pointing out that RC Jr needs to be born again (which entails being washed in the blood of Christ.). In contrast, your experience has left you with a definition for the word that involves quashing any kind of disagreement with leadership, and shunning, and cutting off relationships altogether. And Im not starting. Sproul Jr. is receiving and that persons training/licensing. So Ill start to believe that RC is repentant when he contacts me personally to confess and repent of all the damage he caused me and my family. Having been raised in a highly abusive alcoholic home (My mom) it sickens me sometimes to read about the love and compassion we should have for the addicted.And for the we are all just sinners crowd your ignorance is truly sickening. I dont doubt any of the bad things that people claim that R.C. Then they really start talking. I'm a former member of RC Jr's "church" St. Peter Presbyterian. So-yeah for women in surgery, but yeah for the men also. My biggest concern is that he'll give some time for the dust to settle and then weasel his way back into "ministry." Thats why I gave you push back, because a lot more is at stake than just him and how this is handled. Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? Some of it I dont think is fair, but there may be some merit in it. Based on what Im seeing by other people here, who have left posts (other than the one person above who says RC Jr is gentle), the guy sounds abusive. Dr. R.C. Like Liked by 1 person. and me. Marriage & Divorce. I find it a little odd that someone would seek out people in a church to ask for names and addresses of doctors, when they can get the same information online. We could not see how brainwashed we had been until we had gained some distance, time, and perspective. That is probably because some of us have been following RC1 and RC2 longer than others. Seeing a thread go down this road again makes me very sad. In time, this changes for the better. Many of us have suffered tragedies. That does not mean that we do not also think that he should get treatment for the good of his children and his wife and the community at large. Hi Julie Anne, I felt Velour was hostile towards Barbara and me, and also H.A. No one has said we shouldnt try. I realize that our understanding of addiction today does make it complex, but I am just frustrated with the hypocrisy that makes us look pathetic to non-believers. I just see the hope really being in getting people like him into treatment, and getting treatment/support for their family members. How does keeping an alcoholic in the church help that person, or, more specifically, rid them of the alcoholism? She and I part theological company. Its about Love. Based on everything Im reading about this guy in this thread and the OP by various people, (that he joined an adultery site, hes been a bully for years, is authoritarian, he has his church ostracize ex members, etc) are you saying that this bad fruit should be ignored, all because the guy is also an alcoholic? So I was only saying what the Bible says. That allows time for the body to get used to being *not anxious* or experiencing regular anxiety like being late for an appointment. It is complex. I didnt have serious burns, jist brown patches, PTL! Login to find your connection. (Is this still considered true? You get CPS involved to keep checking on he welfare of the children. An Infographic on Tullian Tchividjians Pursuit of Women and a Public/Publication Platform, GRACE Releases Statement Regarding Tullian Tchividjian Supports Victims, Challenges Churches with ConstructiveChanges, 1. So I was only saying what the Bible says. I wouldnt wish it on RC Jr. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) 2. I have noticed that you get stuck in a rut and keep going over the same thing over and over again, even though you know the issues have already been covered and logically and responsibly discussed. Will his wife? Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. Not the family, not the legal system, not the medical people-the church. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. I lost a number of friends in high school who didnt. And I have contempt when people excuse and tolerate and make excuses for substance abuse of any kind; that helps no one. ~ja, Myself and RC Jrs other adult children are estranged from him. Tullian Tchividjian and Fortress Press: Dont Legitimate Second Chances Require a Real Track Record of RepentanceFirst? Perhaps you missed my list up the thread from last night. did comment above and gave us some important facts (and a lot of fiction too): We now approach these matters much more like a spiritual team and have developed richer relationships not dependent on being part of the organization. Nonsense. You can get a taste for it in Jrs self-obsessed novella that he published on his ministry web site many years ago, Ligonier Tales. Theres a show about morbidly obese people on cable TV, and some of them over eat to medicate pain left over from childhood. You advocated, like Barbara, that Sproul Jr. be kicked out of his church. If a person professing to be a Christian and is a drunkard (i.e. Please keep our nations decision makers in prayer over the next few weeks. The terrible way I have heard that an alcoholic manipulates others is that he/she will deny drinking, but then plot and plan to do anything that gets them to that next drinkie .. and nothing or no one, not family or innocent people, are considered. She needed that love. But to take that info and post it here? I personally think I was a piece of crap uncle but thats me. There is a world of difference between an alcoholic of no particular name or reputation benefiting from the love of a functional church, and an authoritarian church CEO being effectively treated in the very church in which his word has been law for years. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. Thats a very hard life, to put it mildly. (caps and emphasis intended). Verse 1 in that chapter is very special to me, as it addresses the right way to approach a professed brother who is living in disobedience to God. Another poster posted Scripture from one of Pauls letters about not fellowshipping with people who proclaim faith in Christ Jesus, but live a life of continual unrepentant sin. I do not believe that an addict should be thrown out of church.There is afterall a disease involved, but a church should not enable. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. Getting him sober wont cure his personality disorders. I am so glad that Anne Lamott got help thats wonderful! Now I can look back and say, How in the world did we not see how destructive their theology and community was? False guilt attaches to many people in this area because some traditions have prescribed a rule against alcohol when no such law is present in the Bible. I happen to see the public health aspects of alcoholism and drug addiction differently than you and Barbara (and Julie Anne) see them. They also seem to be very kind and generous; not manipulative, etc. But were not there yet. I dont have a lot of hope that this will happen, however. Is is with a licensed professional whos trained and qualified in alcoholism? The question is whether anyone close to him (a) loves him enough to do the confrontation and (b) understands enough to do it well. This comment seems especially relevant. He didnt just feel forsaken; he was forsaken. Sproul 2s drinking (and whatever other problems that he has) and an intervention by family and friends with a trained professional. No prison time. Sproul, Jr. to capitalize on his fathers recent death and pull the heartstrings of those who admired his father is inappropriate. And I know how the victims of such unjust expulsions often feel, because we hear from them often at A Cry For Justice. Couldnt even stand up. When those boundaries get repeatedly violated then a marital separation might be called for, although it doesnt always need to even be a legal separation filed in the courts. Intriguing. or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language] And thats wonderful news to hear about changed lives in your family. Contra Costa County? As others have pointed out rather than enable RC2, RC should have insisted no special treatment be given to RC2 and thus forced RC2 to hit rock bottom. You could maybe argue he could be permitted to be a Pew Potato, but I dont think he should be allowed to remain a preacher. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Come to think of it, Id be pretty surprised if this plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment required/AA. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. But its a long story, and might strip away my teens anonymity, so I wont go into further detail. I did not see her post in that manner. Being a parent of an alcoholic or drug abuser is scary. Vesta Voorhis Sproul (age 84) is listed at 347 Bellview Pl Sanford, Fl 32771 and is affiliated with the Republican Party. RC Sproul Jr was facing up to 7 years in prison and $21,000 in fines. True. RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? We can do better. To simply kick them out, in my opinion, is wrong. So that is why I and possibly some others had a visceral reaction of Remove this cancer from the Body once and for all. Does his life bear the mark of a Christian? Ive had people pressure me to drink when Ive gone to parties (when they see me standing there sans drink in hand), and Ive had a few people ask me if Im a recovering alcoholic. His license was reinstated early this month with no restrictions. I liked the way he was thinking and agreed with his conclusions and really liked the way he dealt with the problem and the patient. H.A. I would be interested in writing a post about. The accusation about St. Peter Presbyterian Church being a cult and RC Sproul Jr being a cult leader was widely assumed for years in Bristol, Virginia especially among pastors in the area. The point being that even relatively mild hypoglycaemia is known to impair brain function; if I were involved in an accident whilst hypoglycaemic, I would be considered in law to be driving under the influence of medication. Please stop advocating for his children? However, you did make a good point, and Im glad you did: Sproul Jr. did indeed engage in that sin and irresponsibility before those tragedies occurred his life which bolsters my original statement. This means that someone else (or more than one) has allowed RCSJ to continue in this sin (drunkenness is defined as sin in the Bible), even to the point of endangering the lives of children. It is perfectly fine for you to believe that. My hubby and his eight siblings suffered severely under their fathers alcoholism.the youngest is now 55, but the emotional scars linger. Intervention only works when the abuser is willing to submit to a program. 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