Did he stay to minister to anyone in need? While he was pastor at another church in Dallas he followed this same doctrine of sin and follower of Jesus Christ. Its all based on financial packages and NDAs now. Andrew Bhatia Regardless we know Romans 8:28 maybe its a season of 2 Tim 3:16-17. Spiritual authority is the result of Gods power shown through spiritual gifts and deep experiences with God. In September 2020, Wagner announced he was taking a leave of absence to work on pride issues. Todd Wagner, the embattled pastor of Watermark Church, a Dallas multisite megachurch with a pre-pandemic congregation of 20,000 people, has resigned his position as senior pastor and elder. i watched the video dont know how i got as far as i did i had to turn it off. Its extremely worrisome that they feel they have to hide and be afraid of what Watermark Church may say or do in response to them telling the truth about their abuse. Spiritual authority has nothing to do with title, education, or rhetorical ability (2 Cor 10-13). Embattled Dallas megachurch Senior Pastor Todd Wagner has resigned from his position after accusations of spiritual abuse led elders to question his leadership of Watermark Community Church. When he stepped into an executive pastor role a few years back he didnt like that his replacement (JP) was more poly than he was so he didnt allow him to pastor/lead. I have first hand experience with a senior pastor doing exactly this and teaching younger families how to properly budget and cost of having kids. There are no congregational votes nor do individual members have a 'say' in how things are handled. Came off as legalistic trolling. In the end, I do think it is a matter of opinion, but I think churches should lean toward transparency. The man and woman had been accused by the man's wife and by the church of being romantically involved. True humility is replaced with a very shallow and false one and so they humble brag about how big a crowd they can draw. Cant even begin to address this without feeling a sense of disappointment. Wow. The reason for this is because, as an elder, he will be responsible for teaching others. How many times have you actually talked to Todd? Im with Scotty and Andy Wilson. He was then the most arrogant and disrespectful person imaginable. I am 63. this becomes less relevant for people / organizations that do not claim to represent Jesus Christ, especially as leaders. Once you see it, you cant unsee it. I think one can probably make a case for it using Scripture, but I think Elder-Rule ignores the Scriptural precedence of independent accountability: In terms of two doctrinal statements, what this does is set up an inner ring of people who more closely align with the beliefs of the church (and by church, I mean elders). There was one guy that didnt want to shareRead more . I dont know folks.if you have to go online and record a video to explain how your church is not a cult..this might lead into a Jeff Foxworthy joke! Todd could use he had no use for you. R.w. Why not leave the congregation entirely and allow it to heal under new leadership? In some ways this reminds me of the CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace debacle. to the homeless person in Dallas, it might be a hot meal and a warm bed, a job, eventually a home of some kind (a room to call their own, a studio, an apartment,). it simply looks very bad. We didnt share our financial information until almost a year into our meeting. so much pretense. What you need to know about Church Membership Covenants., The Aftermath: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members, The Aftermath Part II: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members, Family Ties: How Watermark Community Church is Alienating Families. Not to gotcha, but I just want to set the record straight that the gift tax doesnt make it unrealistic that Todds family was gifted that house. First and foremost- this is a season that God is shaking things up. What does all white and all males have to do absolutely anything with regard to this situation? Toward that end, the site requires that people use their full name when commenting. Regardless I loved your passion and pray that Holy Spirit would cover you and lead you in the area that needs correction. Of course, God has a very different definition of success than we do. How can you be under church discipline if you leave the church? You made friends with whoever you wanted to and you shared what you felt like sharing. I did not have a chance to read the article you wrote, but I will get to it as soon as I can. While God does allow humans to have free will, His greatest gift to every human is salvation and eternal life, through believing that He sent His son as a sacrifice for our sins. The Judge overseeing this case is TAPSCOTT, KEN. In layman's terms, that means all decisions concerning the governance of the church are made by the elders, not by the members. Both of these practices are, in my opinion, unhealthy. Opinion: What is Revivaland is it Happening at Asbury? If youd like a suggestion for a charity outside of our church well gladly help you. They dont even take a collection in church! I have shepherded groups at Re|EngageI do not trust the leadership at WM Re|Engage. Watermark exists to be and make more fully devoted followers of Christ, looking to God's Word as our only authority, conscience and guide. Let me rephrase: Elder Mickey Friedrich then urged the church not to try and judge whose version of events is right or wrong. I asked Susan if she wouldnt mind answering a few questions for this post, which she was happy to do. Yeah, I glanced at it. Perfectly said Scottie. Not Todds decision but good try on the poor stewardship bit. What a strange and often sad world much of American white evangelicalism has become. He added that he and Wagner are good and there is no anger, malice, or slander between them. I wonder what is considered a lavish lifestyle. Its gotten popular which makes me suspect. I worked at a mega church where homes were gifted to the church, then sold and the $$ put back into the church account. 4774 square feet also poor stewardship unless hes raising 8 kids or something. You are probably the person ego roles in Lexuss each day when you pull in the church but if Lord has gifted something you are too quick to put that person under the bus. For every story that IRead more . Perhaps its appropriate for an elder who retired after many years of exemplary service and is available on occasion to give counsel. If you dont want to share about your finances you dont have to. Why wouldnt the devil try to tempt and discredit a Christian leader whos been respected by so many and positively influenced so many? Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Our daughters went to the same grade school and were on the same soccer team. Again from the Watermark Church document: 1.Voluntary termination of Membership is available to any Member in good standing upon written request of that Member. I am praying for you in San Diego CA. It is mentioned in this article. Psychological warfare Is a good name for it. This gives freedom to members who may still be working through some of their beliefs while also holding the elders to a higher standard. Im Jesus name. Fournet is now listed as an elder emeritus, but Bucheck no longer appears on Watermarks leadership page. Products. We have ministry partners with boots on the ground, helping to love and serve others by meeting their immediate physical and spiritual needs. I automatically defended the leaders and staff, and also automatically discredited the victims with pre determined notions the victim was not telling the whole story. All of the years I attended Kanakuk I had awesome and incredible counselors except for Todd. And this is important. They are full-blown corporate performance reviews, except about twice as long as any Ive filled out. that the elder board was ready to go in Todds leadership direction. Wagner is all about control and he lost it. Pastors often receive the most judgement and its rarely considered that they likely face the most spiritual warfare. Our church has an elder-type rule that is healthy, but I know of churches that have had an elder-type rule that is not so healthy. Over the years, Wagner has been dogged by allegations of spiritual abuse published on a blog called No Eden Elsewhere. But, a money maker? Not in your writing, but in the people who felt that they were being personally attacked and never took the time to speak to a leader or to actually consider the teachings that are found in the Bible. A major focus of the Community Groups at Watermark and many other churches is to foster the development of deep connection with a small group of fellow believers that enables true Christian accountability. Remember how CJ wrote a book on humility and then some of the staff said he was anything but and instead was quite controlling. It is not as simple as walking away. I dont know what the tax rate is near Watermark but I doubt I could afford just the taxes & insurance on that house. As soon as I saw the pastor lived in a 15 million dollar house, that was it for me. One is very wealthy and likely the one who lives in the house you mentioned. These overly dramatic talks tend to make me feel like Im not spiritual enough or theyre covering up something. What a bizarre statement. I came to watermark on a visit with my sons family. Im heart broke and still excited to see what Lord and how He is going to carry out this. I went through the Re:Engage program twice early in its development. Todd was my counselor at Kanakuk Camps for a summer. I was one of the cold ones! If the leaders deem you unworthy of their support due to pride or sin struggle reasons, they will absolutely unequivocally unabashedly and with zero conscience or compassion, write you off. At the beginning of each year our membership goes to zero. Wow Andy, you got to do more than just Google the name brother. If I was a member of this church my motivation for remaining or leaving would be almost entirely based upon trying to figure out what happened in an effort to understand if the leadership is healthy or unhealthy. We are talking about a CHURCH here, not the mafia. Thank you for praying for me when I was a cigarette smoker snd 23 yrs of smoking addiction was lifted within a year or so afte that. Did he stay and open his churches to the people that were cold and hungry? The initial corporate fraud is in fact the membership agreement itself. even if 100% true (zero exaggeration or embroidery), it almost makes it sound like Todd was an unwitting victim of disproportionate generosity and was utterly helpless. Before coming to Watermark, I never knew the Bible could be applied to my life. Is this standard really higher or is it just more specific? Watermark has a leadership problemRead more , Watermark is very transparent about finances. I have however heard Todd Wagner say from the pulpit if youre not comfortable giving here thats ok, please give somewhere meaningful to you. This was the same concept as we moved on to adult Sunday school. Having community is not the issue its how Watermark DEFINES community. seems to me median, or less, is reasonable (relative to the community where the church exists). These resources are found in Appendix V and Appendix VI at the end of this case study and in the clarifications given by Watermark in the section Watermark's Response to the Nation. Move away 2.Join another (approved) church 3. Worth 1-2 million. It was a class before the main church service where people around the same age as you sat in a room, listened to a bible lesson, maybe interacted a bit, shared prayer requests, took up a small offering, held hands and said a closing prayer. You can see it on their instagram! This is maybe a time for correction for Todd as it seems (2 Tim 3:16-17) havent you ever done anything wrong? According to Watermark Church, I guess we werent doing it right. Get eSignature workflows, document management, and business process automation with the airSlate Business Cloud. OK. The Bible says in Hebrews 4:13, Nothing in all creation is hidden from Gods sight. I went to a church with a broadly evangelical membership statement coupled with a specifically Calvinistic, and specifically young earth creationist, teaching statement. Amazing indeed! Log In. To become a member, there are certain things with which a person has to be in agreement, of course; but if a person becomes an elder, then what is expected is more clearly defined. Elder and staff member David Leventhal stepped down in late March, citing "an erosion of trust" in Wagner's ability to lead. (although my personal view is a modest lifestyle is best for all, and all things considered,). Just the congregationhmmmmmm.. | Grace Community Church. In our church, this is clearly laid out during the membership process. 2 doctrinal statements create confusion over authentic belonging. He could have thanked his friend for his generosity, and politely declined the gift, suggesting he would love for the proceeds from the resale of the house be donated to a local homeless charity instead. It also lists Fellowship Church and Village Church in its top 10 on cults (Village likely is, Fellowship is more of a personality cult centered around Ed), strangely Gateway Church isnt listed (and several people think it may be more of a personality cult than Watermark or Village). Todd portrays it all as a divine God told me sort of thing. Im not taking about prosperity- When I watched his stepping back/pride/ sin talk, I wanted to either vomit or laugh out loud.. Watermark, a fast-growing nondenominational church in northeast Dallas, says the case involves accusations of adultery, a wife who wanted to save her marriage, a husband who sat on a board of a national Christian organization, and another woman who works for another church. That is one huge cult. Listening for root issues and how they cause hurt for make more senses than listening to reply in a sermon. You guys can rip apart our church and Todd all you want, but I know him, and you wont find a man with more of a heart of gold than him. Which by the way, most of north Dallas (including Lake Highlands) has experienced the same level of appreciation. I think I have a pdf copy of a ten year old one. I also know of churches that do not use this model that are both healthy and unhealthy. Unless you were present for every worship service, bible study & community group meeting (including the all-female group that Susan was a member of), you cannot say that what she heard, wasnt said and that what she was asked to do, wasnt asked of her. Wagner founded Watermark in 1999 with the expressed purpose of ministering to "the unchurched, dechurched, dead-churched and unmoved." The church grew rapidly and now has campuses in Dallas, Frisco, and Plano. He hides behind the church to bully people whether in the church or outside. indoor plumbing plumbing would be a luxury. Todd loves and worships money and attention. The preacher they were to install couldnt preach well. Amy Smith of the blog Watchkeep has documented her experience there, and it bears much of the hallmarks of a cult. He can be only the center ofRead more . On the April 8, 2019 episode of WordsfromWags, a website that features videos from Watermark Church senior pastor Todd Wagner addressing various issues, the topic of the day was Is Watermark Church a Cult? Theyre not only going to write you off but theyll make sure your entire community group does too.Read more , [] of absence in September 2020 to work on prideful sin that was increasingly becoming visible to church members. i expect someone who represents Jesus Christ in a leadership capacity to live in accordance to Jesus message on money and wealth. 4774 sq ft house. And Elder Kyle Thompson tearfully described how God had used Wagner to disciple and grow and to model for me what faithfulness looks like more than anybody else, period., Elder Mickey Friedrich then urged the church not to try and judge whose version of events is right or wrong. Thats a new one on me. Mind Games The Bizarre & Controling Culture of Another requirement for membership is that you find an area in which to serve in the church. There are 2 Todd Wagners in Dallas. I wonder what is considered a humble enough lifestyle to please all the rest of us looking in and offering our opinion about something we probably do not know enough about I have edited some of her answers for content and length. And thanks for the word smarmy. The church was founded on Biblical principles from families that really love the Lord. . * For What? These resources are found in Appendix V and Appendix VI at the end of this case study and in the clarifications given by Watermark in the section Watermark's Response to the Nation. the artificial contrived way of being is over the top. There is clearly some issues, but isnt Lord bug enough to handle it, even at the worst of Todd missed the boat? Or, in this case, you live on as Elder Emeritus! He began to consider that he was in a cult. He has people who fund his life so no donations are used for that purpose and so he can fully focus on running the mission.. do you have knowledges that Todd is spending money frivolously? Problem with a church goers these days is (they are simply judgmental- half the time without any knowledge or discernment. +++++++++++++++++. Positional authority deals with executing responsibilities within an organization, like a general in an army, the president of bank, or the pastor of a church. Does anyone find this highly hypocritical? Watermark is very good at many things but also very bad at a few. How? What does being your authentic self really mean, in the context of community groups? -, Watermark Community Church has believers SIGN I was a messed up kid at that time and Todd was the worst counselor ever. I really enjoyed the music and people. THAT is what these people are afraid of. Did You Know This Church Is Closely Aligned with 9 Marx (sic) This case was filed in Dallas County Texas Courts, Dallas County Texas Courts At Law located in Dallas, Texas. My soul was touched. Im thankful you have experienced the controlling, entrapment, and triangulating side of WM. I can attest, when they claim no member of WM will ever go homeless, is a complete and total lie. (How many of you have actually prayed for Todd)? Its upto Him. I keep coming back to this because something just doesnt seem right. After hearing Todds sermon, I left the building thinking pride comes before the fall will be evidenced in that man someday. So recent events are unsurprising to me. Childcare was free. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive a copy of "Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse" by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. I think Im getting the hang of this Christianese thing. Ministries. So in summary, Watermark isnt a cult because they follow Jesus better than anyone, are more radical about it than anyone else, and if thats what a cult is, oh well, I guess were a Jesus cult! search clear. That is only for the married folk. The Christian Post's Leonardo Blair wrote an eyeopening post titled Dallas megachurch pastor who confessed to sin of pride resigns. It looks as if an elder finally stood up and refused to be silenced. Those who love control and achievement thrive very well there = works. Then check your heart. What Happens Now? If you call Christ a savior then learn to make Him Religious double talk. Watermark Community Church is a nondenominational evangelical megachurch based in Dallas, Texas . Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. As directed by Scripture, Watermark makes a distinction between regularly attending and being a formal member of our church. Also I probably would be off my depression meds. I was informed that this was a gift from a wealthy individual who has known Todd a long time and does not attend Watermark. You may have the last word if you wish. In principle it was excellent. Our online editing platform simplifies the process for any action you may want to do with Church Membership. ingratiating and wheedling in a way I am so tired of the evangelical industrial complex justifying there greed and sexual abuse and bullying. He comes back, preaches, and the elder board is moving forward with reinstating him and Leventhal has qualms about it. the equity in a $million+ home can be invested to provide hot meals, warm beds, jobs, training, and more for years. Hes definitely not perfect, but he is a good and Godly man who preached the gospel boldly and consistently. They gave you a false fraudulent form of love, because it was ConditionalRead more , I dont want to make light of this, but I do want to say that this is beyond misleading. Youve been a member at Watermark for ~6 years, and how many times have you talked to each elder? So you either choose to remain by completing the 4b questionnaire or you are no longer a member, [] a greatexample of unsafe community groups which verge on cults. For much of Wagners speech in the video, Leventhal did not look at Wagner, but stared straight ahead. https://www.watermark.org/about/governance. Kind of smarmy too. Better to have one doctrinal statement that unites both members and elders in my opinion. File photo of fans at a Dallas Stars . Im happy to answer any questions, but you need to know this is absolutely wrong information. There are more than one people with the name Todd Wagner. Did You Know This Church Is Closely Aligned with 9 Marx (sic) Our Staff Team serves, equips, and deploys the saints to live on-mission for the glory of our King. christian leaders who are not straightforward and forthright cannot be healthy. -, You write about the website, No Eden Elsewhere. By our measure our savior Jesus was a total and complete failure. I wonder what is considered a lavish lifestyle. That is only for the married folk. In the video, Wagner said that the clarity to step down was not hasty, adding that the discernment process had started a year ago. He didnt even buy the house, it was gifted by a member years ago. Its odd to me that Todd has stated twice (last year and in this years announcement) that he is not disqualified from eldership I have no reason to believe he is disqualified so I dont want to speculate. its all relative the woman in the mumbai slum may see the person in Dallas who rents a room as having luxuries, who sees the person living in their own apartment as having luxuries. Watermark Community Church is an elder-led congregation. Ive been freed for nearly 10 yrs now with cigarettes, alcohol snd sex until wife had been given, Aside from the fact that it was gifted to him (alarming at the very least) it shows poor stewardship and lack of humility on Wagners part. Every argument you put forth seems to be based on your subjective opinion based on your speculation, assumption, and judgement.. Watermark encourages people to confess their sins to one another and to admonish faithfully but thats because thats what the Bible tells us to do as believers.. Problem with the churches these days is many in congregation will do same thing as Judas did, deny !! Wagner is a bully. Just because you have never been abused in the way these people have, does not negate that they were. Once your account is created, you'll be logged-in to this account. to verify your name calling., Which of the victims of yes, things do not add up. Churches that utilize a confession like the Westminster, 1689, or the 39 articles seem comfortable requiring specificity in their doctrine for both members and pastors I think this is more transparent, and thus healthier, than having two statements. Thats for God to reveal or conceal.. I have nothing to hide, and sharingRead more , As an ex-Watermark member (8 years), and former CG leader (6 years), I can say unequivocally that I had no problem sharing my financial information with my guys. Wowza, what does Whoopie have to do with this? 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